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Post by mikey on Jun 3, 2020 5:56:12 GMT
Just wondering, Trump is threatening to deploy the military to counter the protests thinking he can just say and do this as President and CiC of the US army. Apart from the legal restrictions to actually do this, it would be unprecedented and would mean troops being ordered to inflict harm on protesters (whether peaceful or otherwise) and not for a civil need requiring martial law.
Just wondering (ZR) is what would be the mood of the average soldier in barracks? Would they be prepared to do this, when they may Want to support the reasons for the protest, with over 30% of military being non white and may not have the institutional racism that plagues many US police forces. Although, at the end of the day, it might come down to how much they respect Trump and his views. Is it at all possible that the military (whether higher in command or lower down) would state reluctance in following orders if it meant ‘taking arms’ against their own nationals?
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Post by beef on Jun 3, 2020 7:09:15 GMT
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Post by mikey on Jun 3, 2020 8:07:01 GMT
Thanks. Yeah some police forces get it right and police police can follow their own conscience, with disciplinary action the sanction they face. The military are following orders and would be facing courts martial for disobeying orders or even mutiny. The implications are far more significant, both to the individual serviceman/woman as well as the credibility to the commanders, up to the presidential administration itself.
I wonder if this has been commented on at all in the US media. Would Trump risk being humiliated if there was any possibility that military chiefs questioned his authority or the troops made clear any reluctance to follow orders to fire on the protesters.
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Post by Zenrider on Jun 3, 2020 9:23:27 GMT
There are a lot of obstacles Trump needs to overcome to use the military against citizens. From what I understand, if the Governors don't ask him to send troops, he can't send troops without congressional approval, which he wouldn't likely get, thankfully.
Much of what he's talking about doing is unconstitutional. Then again, he's been tearing up the Constitution every chance he can get and as long as the Republicans have the Senate, there is only so much we can do. So we protest. Women and their supporters took to the streets as soon he was inaugurated.
Anyone with a brain in the states is worried about the future, especially if Putin manages to steal another election for his boy. Oddly, I was expecting a lot of this when George W. Bush took office, though much of his 8 years paved the way for this.
The saddest thing is, and I may have said it before, no one loves a police state more than the police.
As if Covid-19 wasn't bad enough for this year, Trump will make sure this is one of the worst years in USA history even if there was no Covid-19. He's worried that even with Russian help he may not win the election, so he's going to destroy as much of America as he can. It's unbelievable this insanity is happening.
As it is, I feel guilty going to work as normal.
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Post by mikey on Jun 3, 2020 12:29:50 GMT
Talking oh George W Bush, has recently stated his disgust at George Floyd’s death, talked about Americans working towards a more equal society and said that protestors need to be listened to not attacked. So different to Trump who has the aim of ripping apart American society, having previously encouraged supporters of racism. Yet both are/were republicanS to the right of their party.
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Post by mikey on Jun 5, 2020 7:14:11 GMT
Just reading in the Guardian about white Trump supporters, turning up to disrupt, threaten and intimidate peaceful protest. They are welcomed by the police despite being armed with baseball bats and are not tear gassed to make them disperse. One woman who was threatened, Called 911 and was told to be grateful that they were there to ‘protect’ her.
Also seems to be a big momentum of white bullies and thugs starting to call themselves ‘Trumps Army’. Not sure if may have originated from the presidents team but I bet he loves the thought of his own army of supporters being given legitimacy to do what the hell they like.
He has, and is, really ripping America apart. I really worry that, even if he loses to Biden, he will remain a powerful figure and make out that he is the legitimate president. Wonder if Biden would be strong enough to stand up to the embedded support for Trump from the far right. Also worry that this form of engineered social unrest will spill over to other countries, there is much evidence of this already (look at how Duerte, Putin and Bolsonaro are propped up by encouraging support from Trump and who knows what other support is given through American businesses).
So many similarities to the rise of European fascism in the 1920’s and 30’s. Thugs encouraged to fight opponents on the street whilst given greater legitimacy by right wing ‘politicians.
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Post by beef on Jun 5, 2020 12:47:52 GMT
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Post by Zenrider on Jun 5, 2020 22:41:36 GMT
Yes, this is a terrifying time for those that value real freedom. Some of us are definitely heading for the Gulag, but we will be in the best company. Hillary should have fought harder for the presidency she won. His supporters would have been upset, but not nearly as dangerous as they are now. Saw lots of them heading into Chicago on my way to work today. Identifiable by their brand new never seen before anti choice/abortion stickers. Sadly, there are those that prefer their imagined gods and kings over freedom. Especially when it gives them the freedom to treat others badly. That said, the Queen did look cute on her pony this week.  |
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Post by Zenrider on Jun 7, 2020 19:56:00 GMT
The question will be, will the momentum be kept up. This has become a world movement.
We have all wondered when enough would be enough. We may have finally reached enough.
The problem is, we have allowed the wrong people to gain too much power in our governments.
Over here, too much influence over how our votes are counted. I'm hoping people realize their is a huge difference on how Conservatives (Republicans here) view freedom and Liberals (Democrats here) view freedom. Republicans believe freedom should only be for those that can afford it with money.
Democrats view freedom and being something that should not have to be bought.
The problem worldwide sometimes, is the words can be used so wrong. China may call itself communist, but it is not. It is a fascist capitalistic dictatorship. A true communist country would not have any billionaires, let alone the most billionaires per capita of any country. That was also the problem with the Soviet Union. It was formed on a communist uprising, but ended up forming into a true fascist dictatorship, that for it's own convenience allowed the Russia mob to form as an extension of their control and more a way to launder their money around the world with complicit people like Donald Trump.
While I'm on a roll: There is no far left Antifa, that is a far conservative fabrication. Which is why people claiming to the press they are with Antifa are almost always (if not always) found to actually have far right conservative ties when arrested for rioting and looting by the police.
BTW, everyone in America should be Anti Fascist as we have fought multiple wars against fascism. I believe that also would figure for many other countries as well. Especially, those that fought together as allies in two World Wars.
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Post by mikey on Jun 7, 2020 22:07:33 GMT
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Post by Zenrider on Jun 8, 2020 6:37:06 GMT
Yeah, I saw that, wow! What's amazing is no one got tear gassed for doing it. Do you think they will fish it out of the river and put it back up? I'm not sure where we are headed over here. It seems always in these situation to be one step forward, two steps back. We don't have the leadership we need to really make change in all the states, but perhaps some will do better than others. We can only hope this wakes people up to how important voting is. The more people that vote, the harder it is to rig the results. Trump is already feeding his base that if he loses the voting has been rigged, but looking at the past, any rigging has been done by the Republicans. He's doing this because he knows given a fair election he will lose, which is why they will do all they can to keep people from voting. This time we don't have a third party hack muddying the waters, but not sure that will be enough, especially since they not only have Putin on their side, but the manufacturers of many of the electronic voting machines used in predominantly Republican led states. Here's hoping for a future that will not only allow, but encourage future WOMADs. |
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Post by mikey on Jun 8, 2020 13:24:02 GMT
The historian David Olusoga summed up why Bristol still kept the name Colston and the Statue in situ. The ‘Colston Hall’ will be announcing its new name later this year, following extensive consultation to make sure the appropriate name is chosen. The decision to do this, in 2017, divided the city...
That year Colston Hall, Bristol’s prime concert venue, and one of the many institutions named after the slave trader, announced that it was to change its name. In response, a number of otherwise reasonable decent people announced that they would be boycotting the hall. Think about that for a moment. Rational, educated, 21st-century people earnestly concluded that they were taking a moral stance by refusing to listen to music performed within the walls of a concert hall unless that venue was named after a man who bought, sold and killed human beings.
It was appropriate to do this now, who knows how many Black African Americans are descended from the tens of thousands transported by Colston’s Company, to be oppressed for hundreds of year and still today to have higher risk of being abused by the US police (maybe George Floyd Was one of these descendants)
More statues need to come down and it may only be by people power that this will happen. Those cheap tacky confederate statues in America to the Statues of Leopold of Belgium. Oppressors of people should not be commemorated in ways that continue to oppress the descendants of people they oppressed.
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Post by Zenrider on Jun 8, 2020 18:07:30 GMT
If you don't want to watch the whole thing, though I do recommend it, but at the end about 31:51 kind of gives a different perspective on looting and rioting. And more so, on where some of the people that have to deal with over zealous racist police on a regular basis are at. They are at the end of their thread, and they should be.
Even so, much of the rioting and looting is still from outside already criminal forces, and of that overwhelmingly from a white supremacist source.
It does explain why most places peaceful protestors haven't been risking their lives to stop it, which shouldn't be their job. The police aren't really doing much to stop it and when they do, many of these people are found to have white supremacist ties. The police seem more intent in some places on instigating clashes with peaceful protestors, than they are in preventing crime. Then again, peaceful protestors are a softer and safer target. Insane.
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Post by mikey on Jun 8, 2020 20:44:08 GMT
This is not available to view in the UK but if you have a VPN subscription (I use Nord VPN) you should be able to switch to a US connection and watch the clip through that.
Powerful stuff. One thing John does not say though, chances are in many states any criminal conviction could mean losing the right to vote. The more people that get arrested and charges for protesting, even if peaceful, that could mean less people voting aagainst Trump In the Autumn.
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Post by Zenrider on Jun 8, 2020 22:31:08 GMT
Well, he does have only have a half hour show.
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