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Post by standing stone on Feb 7, 2018 14:48:13 GMT
I have had a call this morning from the Job Centre Plus inviting me to join in a focus group aimed at compiling a workshop/advice/training course for people returning to work aged 45+. I put myself up for this last time I went to sign on as I pointed out that there were plenty of notices offering targeted help for 16 - 24 year olds or people under 30, but nothing for my age group, and I'd like help in targeting applications to the employers which are more likely to be interested in taking on people in their 50's or older. So, I can easily start with the unfairness of online applications....
.... and I'd like to hear more of anyone's experiences or ideas for improvements or inclusions.......... if you are 45+ and were to start looking for work right now, what obstacles do you face and what would you like in the way of advice / help? This is my chance to make sure your voice is heard too, so go for it!
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Post by nigenet on Feb 7, 2018 16:23:24 GMT
I remember when I applied for a job at my local college many years ago, all personal info (name, address, date of birth, etc) was all on the front page of the application form which was perforated so it could be removed and a serial number linked it to the rest of the form. The idea being that when it arrived the front page would be removed and stored separately, then whoever would be going through the applications wouldn't have any idea of any applicants age, gender, etc. Of course, when they get to the educational qualifications section and read about my O-Levels, that might give them a clue  |
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Post by standing stone on Feb 8, 2018 9:56:38 GMT
Exactly - O levels and my work history starts in 1978. I know that a good mix of ages works really,really well; I was a Team Leader for 19 people with ages ranging from 16 to 65 - we had a brilliant sense of family; really gelled; so much in the way of different experiences and knowledge to be shared up and down the years; very supportive and lots of fun.. and yes, of course, the work got done too!  |
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Post by deserttraveller on Feb 9, 2018 21:03:26 GMT
Ah yes on line, tests.
The 5 stage interview. 1 is a basic cv. 2 is a telephone interview which if you pass they warn you about the timed on line tests which is stage 3. 2 sets - verbal reasoning yes its written answers and- mathematical data sets. both in limited time. Thought Id do the verbal reasoning first as it was the hardest. The second used different data sets for each question. My son who has A level maths at A grade was surprised how difficult it was even for him, my brain was not agile enough at (a then 56) to do the maths so I failed the maths part and was unable to pass to 4. the candidate centre where more tests are given. 5. is the actual interview.
The job, nothing to do with data- talking and convincing farmers to adopt sensible H&S on the farm. I told them the process was ageist! The person who wanted me to apply was the area manger for the co, who said I was just what they were looking for!
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Post by standing stone on Feb 10, 2018 9:51:07 GMT
Ah yes on line, tests. The 5 stage interview. 1 is a basic cv. 2 is a telephone interview which if you pass they warn you about the timed on line tests which is stage 3. 2 sets - verbal reasoning yes its written answers and- mathematical data sets. both in limited time. Thought Id do the verbal reasoning first as it was the hardest. The second used different data sets for each question. My son who has A level maths at A grade was surprised how difficult it was even for him, my brain was not agile enough at (a then 56) to do the maths so I failed the maths part and was unable to pass to 4. the candidate centre where more tests are given. 5. is the actual interview. The job, nothing to do with data- talking and convincing farmers to adopt sensible H&S on the farm. I told them the process was ageist! The person who wanted me to apply was the area manger for the co, who said I was just what they were looking for! Funny you should say that, DT............. this is a direct quote from an email I sent to prospective employer recently: "Thanks for your email. I completed the practice examples or the online numerical test and found that I was slow by a tantalizing two to three seconds on the majority of them. My intention was to practice and get my speed up so I could provide my answer within the 90 seconds and also complete the practice examples for the other two elements too, before taking all three tests for submission. I have successfully completed such tests in the past. That was the plan. This has been knocked off course as I had great pain at 4am yesterday morning and, long story short, have been diagnosed with a kidney stone. I am now so full of painkillers and antibiotics that I have to accept that I am simply not able to give the tests my best shot within the allocated time frame. I am to take the same medication over the next few weeks and know that you will want to proceed with your recruiting schedule, so wanted to let you know why you won't be receiving test results from me on this occasion and to thank you for considering me." As with you, I had been told "We’ve read your CV, and think you’ve got what it takes to move to the next stage in our recruitment process. " And, mirroring your experience, the role was not a maths based one............ makes no sense at all. Thanks, DT - I'll flag this up in the focus group too. |
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Post by sc on Feb 10, 2018 10:42:22 GMT
Hi Folks, Interesting that the experience so far seems to have been around worry around the tests. It seems bonkers that tests are set that have no relevance to the job. I used to set tests, but only for those people who were interviewed, it would be the same day, candidates would sit the test, which usually would be case study focus on real examples of problems that really occur. Lets say the test takes an hour, the candidate works for an hour, then has a 20 min break and a tea or coffee, during that time the interview panel looks through their answers, then we hold the interview. The way we used it was not necessarily are the answers "wrong" or "right" but it was used to weed out BS in the interview and from the application. For example the Person Spec on the Job Description may ask for good, Word, Excel and Reconciliation skills. The candidate may say in their application and in their interview that they have these skills. But, when I look at their case study, they couldn't put together or format a Letter, on the spreadsheet they failed to use formulas and they could not do a reconciliation for toffee. However, I would also look for what their thought process was, from a case study you can hopefully see how they were thinking! Did they time manage? If there were 4 questions to be done in an hour, did they time manage? Did they answer 4 questions? This is vital in a work scenario. For example, in reality, (and this would be for more professional job) if you Director says that he is meeting with an MP or a journalist in an hour, can you get these 4 tasks done for him before he meets, in reality, he will be unimpressed if you give him just 3 perfect answers, as you are setting HIM/HER up to fail in front of the MP/Journalist and both he/she and the organisation gets bad press. Far better to give 4 average answers and a note that due to time constraints, these still need to be verified and these verifications will be with you before the end of the meeting with the MP/Journalist. The tests should reflect reality! They are useful when the questions and purpose are set correctly, they are useless when care isn't taken on what questions should be asked, what time pressure you are applying to the candidate and how you intend to use the results. More to follow as and when I get time Dinner Party to help organise for tonight. Thoughts for future monologues, What can I do? What am I good at? The Interview, My age - Benefit or Liability? Personal Pride, Mental Health, What do I need? Qualification vs Experience, The Application Form, As an employer, what am I looking for? |
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Post by calndel on Feb 10, 2018 14:26:54 GMT
written application or tests during interview.................................................
not something Del likes
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Post by Zenrider on Feb 11, 2018 1:00:39 GMT
Ah yes on line, tests. The 5 stage interview. 1 is a basic cv. 2 is a telephone interview which if you pass they warn you about the timed on line tests which is stage 3. 2 sets - verbal reasoning yes its written answers and- mathematical data sets. both in limited time. Thought Id do the verbal reasoning first as it was the hardest. The second used different data sets for each question. My son who has A level maths at A grade was surprised how difficult it was even for him, my brain was not agile enough at (a then 56) to do the maths so I failed the maths part and was unable to pass to 4. the candidate centre where more tests are given. 5. is the actual interview. The job, nothing to do with data- talking and convincing farmers to adopt sensible H&S on the farm. I told them the process was ageist! The person who wanted me to apply was the area manger for the co, who said I was just what they were looking for! Funny you should say that, DT............. this is a direct quote from an email I sent to prospective employer recently: "Thanks for your email. I completed the practice examples or the online numerical test and found that I was slow by a tantalizing two to three seconds on the majority of them. My intention was to practice and get my speed up so I could provide my answer within the 90 seconds and also complete the practice examples for the other two elements too, before taking all three tests for submission. I have successfully completed such tests in the past. That was the plan. This has been knocked off course as I had great pain at 4am yesterday morning and, long story short, have been diagnosed with a kidney stone. I am now so full of painkillers and antibiotics that I have to accept that I am simply not able to give the tests my best shot within the allocated time frame. I am to take the same medication over the next few weeks and know that you will want to proceed with your recruiting schedule, so wanted to let you know why you won't be receiving test results from me on this occasion and to thank you for considering me." As with you, I had been told "We’ve read your CV, and think you’ve got what it takes to move to the next stage in our recruitment process. " And, mirroring your experience, the role was not a maths based one............ makes no sense at all. Thanks, DT - I'll flag this up in the focus group too. You have reminded me why I stayed with the company I'm with for so long. Besides not being the worst to work for, unnecessarily difficult sometimes, but far from the worst, is I hate job interviews and crap so much more. Had one place come back to me 2 years later after two interviews, like I'm sitting around waiting for them to decide to hire me. I was so flabbergasted! I didn't even reply, but perhaps I should have sent them a: 'You snooze, you lose letter.' Much as that could have been fun, at the time burning bridges didn't seem like a great idea. |
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Post by standing stone on Feb 11, 2018 9:28:36 GMT
Hi Folks, Interesting that the experience so far seems to have been around worry around the tests. It seems bonkers that tests are set that have no relevance to the job. I used to set tests, but only for those people who were interviewed, it would be the same day, candidates would sit the test, which usually would be case study focus on real examples of problems that really occur. Lets say the test takes an hour, the candidate works for an hour, then has a 20 min break and a tea or coffee, during that time the interview panel looks through their answers, then we hold the interview. The way we used it was not necessarily are the answers "wrong" or "right" but it was used to weed out BS in the interview and from the application. For example the Person Spec on the Job Description may ask for good, Word, Excel and Reconciliation skills. The candidate may say in their application and in their interview that they have these skills. But, when I look at their case study, they couldn't put together or format a Letter, on the spreadsheet they failed to use formulas and they could not do a reconciliation for toffee. However, I would also look for what their thought process was, from a case study you can hopefully see how they were thinking! Did they time manage? If there were 4 questions to be done in an hour, did they time manage? Did they answer 4 questions? This is vital in a work scenario. For example, in reality, (and this would be for more professional job) if you Director says that he is meeting with an MP or a journalist in an hour, can you get these 4 tasks done for him before he meets, in reality, he will be unimpressed if you give him just 3 perfect answers, as you are setting HIM/HER up to fail in front of the MP/Journalist and both he/she and the organisation gets bad press. Far better to give 4 average answers and a note that due to time constraints, these still need to be verified and these verifications will be with you before the end of the meeting with the MP/Journalist. The tests should reflect reality! They are useful when the questions and purpose are set correctly, they are useless when care isn't taken on what questions should be asked, what time pressure you are applying to the candidate and how you intend to use the results. More to follow as and when I get time Dinner Party to help organise for tonight. Thoughts for future monologues, What can I do? What am I good at? The Interview, My age - Benefit or Liability? Personal Pride, Mental Health, What do I need? Qualification vs Experience, The Application Form, As an employer, what am I looking for? Thank you Yes, all of this! Tests should reflect the reality of the role to be of any use, other it is just getting people to jump through needless and time wasting hoops. Future monologue titles looking good! Also, using a tailored skills/experience based C.V. (not necessarily all accrued through previous jobs) rather than a chronological layout. CV.s need to have the words in the job description in them, otherwise they can be rejected by sifting software before being read by a human. Dinner Party will have been extremely enjoyable, I'm sure |
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Post by standing stone on Feb 11, 2018 9:40:30 GMT
Funny you should say that, DT............. this is a direct quote from an email I sent to prospective employer recently: "Thanks for your email. I completed the practice examples or the online numerical test and found that I was slow by a tantalizing two to three seconds on the majority of them. My intention was to practice and get my speed up so I could provide my answer within the 90 seconds and also complete the practice examples for the other two elements too, before taking all three tests for submission. I have successfully completed such tests in the past. That was the plan. This has been knocked off course as I had great pain at 4am yesterday morning and, long story short, have been diagnosed with a kidney stone. I am now so full of painkillers and antibiotics that I have to accept that I am simply not able to give the tests my best shot within the allocated time frame. I am to take the same medication over the next few weeks and know that you will want to proceed with your recruiting schedule, so wanted to let you know why you won't be receiving test results from me on this occasion and to thank you for considering me." As with you, I had been told "We’ve read your CV, and think you’ve got what it takes to move to the next stage in our recruitment process. " And, mirroring your experience, the role was not a maths based one............ makes no sense at all. Thanks, DT - I'll flag this up in the focus group too. You have reminded me why I stayed with the company I'm with for so long. Besides not being the worst to work for, unnecessarily difficult sometimes, but far from the worst, is I hate job interviews and crap so much more. Had one place come back to me 2 years later after two interviews, like I'm sitting around waiting for them to decide to hire me. I was so flabbergasted! I didn't even reply, but perhaps I should have sent them a: 'You snooze, you lose letter.' Much as that could have been fun, at the time burning bridges didn't seem like a great idea. Zenrider, spot on. I would have loved to have continued working for a company where I had been very happy for over 17 years, but they "merged" with another which had a very different feel and then the branch was closed and we were made redundant in a huge restructuring exercise. I was offered a role elsewhere but had reasons not to move and didn't feel I was a good fit for the way things worked there. It was the 19th January 2000 when the closure / redundancy announcement was made and that is a day (amongst others) I just wish had never happened. |
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Post by Zenrider on Feb 12, 2018 19:31:04 GMT
Zenrider, spot on. I would have loved to have continued working for a company where I had been very happy for over 17 years, but they "merged" with another which had a very different feel and then the branch was closed and we were made redundant in a huge restructuring exercise. I was offered a role elsewhere but had reasons not to move and didn't feel I was a good fit for the way things worked there. It was the 19th January 2000 when the closure / redundancy announcement was made and that is a day (amongst others) I just wish had never happened. [/quote]
I feel your pain, I do not envy you having to start all over.
A friend of mine had pretty much the same thing happen to her several years ago. Sorta worse. She left her job at one company for another. Turned out to not be as good a move as she thought it would be. Went back to her old company. Less than a year later, guess which company bought the other. Yep, the one she had left. To get her severance she had to train her replacement. After she was no longer a paid employee they kept calling her for help, advice and assistance with no pay. They would tell her customers needed her. I reminded her she no longer had 'customers' as she no longer worked there, and suggested setting a consultation rate. Yep, they stopped calling her. Anyway, the point of this is, she was over 50 when this happened and it took her quite some time, maybe a year. She kept getting the 'You're over qualified.' stuff. Much as she was willing to do the job, they knew, rightfully, that she would leave as soon as she found something more suitable.
Here's hoping you find something suitable much, much quicker.
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Post by deserttraveller on Feb 12, 2018 20:00:08 GMT
Sometimes I feel the corporate vision is lost in striving for the perfect grey corporate person; You tick all the boxes but would hate the role. My son, the one with an IQ of 147, had a 1/44 chance of getting into corporate banking and did so. Money was truly epic, he left after 2 years, didn't fit him, so much for the corporate HR, they got him all wrong.
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Post by deserttraveller on Feb 12, 2018 20:24:16 GMT
I did a management course 30 years ago, the lecturer Red Robbo was strong on practicality but low on the latest Bull s**t trend.
We all did assessed extended group projects, weeks in preparation, 3 people in my group. On the presentation day one girl in my group didn't show- a third of our presentation! Myself and the other guy asked for 20 mins to rearrange the whole thing. We did it and it really wasn't perfect at all but we got the only A in the class.
Why? As Robbo said, you guys were faced with the ultimate challenge and you didn't run but rose to it- that's what happens in real life. How far is that from bulls**t on line tests that make no sense at all.
Ps The latest management trend is 'crucial accountability', it was NLP 'Nuro linguistic programming' a couple of years ago. before that, MBO, SMART objectives , Best Value, etc etc....................!
Robbo was practical examples man, a whole term on hiring and firing. eg.'Never fire someone on a Friday, you might find them hanged the next day. Always give them access to support no matter how much of an ass they have been.'
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Post by standing stone on Feb 13, 2018 9:20:30 GMT
written application or tests during interview................................................. not something Del likes ... or online tests against the clock - verbal reasoning - not a chance! Good point I've not seen any online applications which even acknowledge let alone address dyslexia. |
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Post by standing stone on Feb 13, 2018 9:32:08 GMT
Zenrider, spot on. I would have loved to have continued working for a company where I had been very happy for over 17 years, but they "merged" with another which had a very different feel and then the branch was closed and we were made redundant in a huge restructuring exercise. I was offered a role elsewhere but had reasons not to move and didn't feel I was a good fit for the way things worked there. It was the 19th January 2000 when the closure / redundancy announcement was made and that is a day (amongst others) I just wish had never happened. I feel your pain, I do not envy you having to start all over. A friend of mine had pretty much the same thing happen to her several years ago. Sorta worse. She left her job at one company for another. Turned out to not be as good a move as she thought it would be. Went back to her old company. Less than a year later, guess which company bought the other. Yep, the one she had left. To get her severance she had to train her replacement. After she was no longer a paid employee they kept calling her for help, advice and assistance with no pay. They would tell her customers needed her. I reminded her she no longer had 'customers' as she no longer worked there, and suggested setting a consultation rate. Yep, they stopped calling her. Anyway, the point of this is, she was over 50 when this happened and it took her quite some time, maybe a year. She kept getting the 'You're over qualified.' stuff. Much as she was willing to do the job, they knew, rightfully, that she would leave as soon as she found something more suitable. Here's hoping you find something suitable much, much quicker. [/quote]Thanks Zenrider, I have - just waiting for the contract; starting 5th March. Sorry to hear about your friend. I've had the "over qualified" and "thought you would get bored" rejections before - when I really did just want something which I could easily clear from my mind and leave behind at the office when I left on an evening. Really added insult to injury to hear how your friend was hounded for her talents after she had been treated so badly. Hope she is happy doing whatever she is doing now. |
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