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Post by sc on Jun 4, 2019 8:01:30 GMT
Chlorinated chicken, GM Crops, guns, lower food standards, private healthcare providers, legalised union busters, lowering animal rights, unregulated bio chemicals etc. America has so much to offer in a trade deal. for anyone who thinks ‘politics is not for me’ this will go to show why it is relevant and why you should take an interest - before politics takes an interest in you as a consumer for American imports Yes, you have to read the labels on pretty much everything here. As, so many things that are banned for consumption, even in third world countries, may be in your food here. Sadly avoiding those things will cost you. So, poor people are more likely to consume those ingredients. They cry deregulation, yet are happy to make unreasonable regulations women's choices of birth control and beyond. I'm hoping sanity and reason win in the end, but we may have a bumpy ride ahead. Sure you don't want to keep Trump? Yes reading the labels is good, over here all food products must be labelled with “Country of Origin”, this enables customers to make decisions on the purchase, perhaps they have concerns over the Air Miles and therefore Carbon footprint, perhaps a political choice (like they don’t or do want to support a certain Country) or maybe production quality of certain countries or simply want products from their own Country. However, as I understand it, the USA has made it clear that any future Trade Deal with the UK will include the removal of “Country of Origin” from ALL food labelling. No one over here will know if their Chicken or Prawns, was locally sourced or came from, Thailand, China, Nigeria, USA or wherever. |
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Post by Zenrider on Jun 4, 2019 22:16:51 GMT
They have been trying for do that here for quite some time too. Sadly, the judges appointed by the so called conservatives, Republicans here, will more likely make that happen. That's why they stone walled President Obama from filling those positions when it was his right and just for him to do so. It is also why they have been speed filling those positions for the last going on two and a half years. Which is why, even if progressives win, they can show be screwed over in the corporate appointed courts.
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Post by mikey on Jun 4, 2019 22:42:49 GMT
Suddenly people here are realising that a post Brexit trade deal with America will in all likelihood include a sell off of the NHS. Farage has talked about private health insurance in the past, conservatives on the right of the party have been meeting American politicians and business for a long time. If only this was made clear back in 2016 rather than allowing people to believe the blatent lie of £350m per week going on the NHS.
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Post by sc on Jun 5, 2019 7:04:29 GMT
Suddenly people here are realising that a post Brexit trade deal with America will in all likelihood include a sell off of the NHS. Farage has talked about private health insurance in the past, conservatives on the right of the party have been meeting American politicians and business for a long time. If only this was made clear back in 2016 rather than allowing people to believe the blatent lie of £350m per week going on the NHS. Unfortunately, I don't think the population are realising it, I wish they were. If you look at the UK voting in the European Elections 58.1% of those that voted, voted for the Pro-Brexit Parties of The Brexit Party, Labour, UKIP and Conservatives, whereas only 40.4% voted for the Remain Parties of, LibDem, Green, SNP, Plaid Cymri and Change UK. Still a long way to go, still the Brexiteers fought for 40 years to get us out, no reason that we should not fight for 40 years to Remain or Rejoin. |
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Post by olirow on Jun 5, 2019 12:57:46 GMT
I'd like the Rejoin movement to kick off since that would have much more legitimacy than the current attempts to Remain, which if successful are likely to lead to a lot of unpleasantness.
Of course, we need to leave first, and the only way of doing so is a soft Brexit as advocated by Labour. There is simply no other alternative, and May was massively thick in not realising this in the first place.
I don't really get your insistence that Labour and the Tories are leave parties since that is clearly not the case. Sure there are sizeable leave minorities in both cases, and both say they want to push through the results of the referendum, but that doesn't make them leave parties. That is not really even a debatable point.
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Post by sc on Jun 5, 2019 14:42:42 GMT
..... I don't really get your insistence that Labour and the Tories are leave parties since that is clearly not the case. Sure there are sizeable leave minorities in both cases, and both say they want to push through the results of the referendum, but that doesn't make them leave parties. That is not really even a debatable point. As you say, they both say that they will enact Brexit, despite knowing it was only a advisory referendum, knowing that fraud had taken place, knowing that lies had been told, knowing that the public had been misled, knowing of massive evidence of foreign interference, knowing the public were not fully informed and knowing that the referendum result was so slight if it had been a public sector union balloting on strike action it would have been illegal to strike. And yet, the two Establishment Parties say "Yes, we'll enact it, we will enact and carry out that act of self induced national self harm". The only rational conclusion as to why, a Government and the Official Opposition would promise that they will both carry out such an act in the full knowledge that they all know that those that will be most harmed are as usual the weak and the vulnerable, but they both still push ahead, is because the leaders believe Brexit is right, based on belief as opposed to what is best for the people. If they wanted what was best for the people they would try to explain the mistakes and errors made, correct them and put it back to the people. In Labour's Manifesto it clearly states: "Britain needs to negotiate a Brexit deal that puts our economy and living standards first." "So yes, this election is about what sort of country we want to be after Brexit." "Labour accepts the referendum result....." In the Conservatives Manifesto it clearly states: "Brexit will define us: our place in the world, our economic security and our future prosperity." "......to get the best Brexit deal for our country and its people." "we need to deliver a smooth and orderly departure from the European Union ...." etc etc both Parties putting out "Brexit WILL Happen" rather than "Well we really cocked that one up, let's put the liars and cheats in jail, correct the mistakes and make an honest informed decision". But no, they both push Brexit, so yes both Parties are Pro-Brexit, but in Labour's case somewhere between 60-80% of Labour Members are Pro-Remain, it's just the Leadership and Party that isn't, hopefully that will shift soon, before it's too late. |
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Post by beef on Jun 5, 2019 17:17:09 GMT
It seems they're more afraid to upset the leavers than the remainers... but the terrible thing is that no-one will be happy, whatever desperate version of brexit we end up with. It's just a question that should never have been asked, or needed to be asked. Plenty of questions could have been asked, around the corrosive effects of austerity, tuition fees, universal credit, nhs funding, the hostile environment, affordable housing, school funding... but no the question that was asked was a massively stupid attempt to avoid asking the real questions. All to "save" the effing Tory party from itself & ukip... grief.
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Post by mikey on Jun 5, 2019 17:29:30 GMT
Perhaps the hard Brexit will be the best in the long run. An absolute disaster with rejoining the only sensible way out of the mess...at any cost. At least it should see off the rise of the far right and the population realise the lies that have been pedalled by Johnson, farage, gove etc. Will it be a price worth paying? Will people be conned to believing it is the EU’s fault,not ours!
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Post by sc on Jun 5, 2019 18:17:16 GMT
Perhaps the hard Brexit will be the best in the long run. An absolute disaster with rejoining the only sensible way out of the mess...at any cost. At least it should see off the rise of the far right and the population realise the lies that have been pedalled by Johnson, farage, gove etc. Will it be a price worth paying? Will people be conned to believing it is the EU’s fault,not ours! No 😀 about to eat 😀laters 👍👍👍 |
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Post by beef on Jun 5, 2019 18:53:28 GMT
Perhaps the hard Brexit will be the best in the long run. An absolute disaster with rejoining the only sensible way out of the mess...at any cost. At least it should see off the rise of the far right and the population realise the lies that have been pedalled by Johnson, farage, gove etc. Will it be a price worth paying? Will people be conned to believing it is the EU’s fault,not ours! No 😀 about to eat 😀laters 👍👍👍 |
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Post by sc on Jun 5, 2019 19:32:02 GMT
Yes, although I fear Farage may end up PM, if some dick calls an election! Very unlikely though as both Conservatives and Labour would be scared shitless of one! They both want to deliver Brexit before going anywhere near the people! Another option the Tories may adopt, is they know Farage has a massive and loyal following from both traditional Labour Voters and Tory. Tories are currently bouncing around in the low teens or lower in the polls, if they invited Farage to join The Conservatives and be crowned Leader (and therefore PM), they would get back all their traditional voters PLUS around 15% of traditional Labour voters, They must be thinking “Can we do this?” Worked in Germany! |
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Post by sc on Jun 5, 2019 19:50:29 GMT
Perhaps the hard Brexit will be the best in the long run. An absolute disaster with rejoining the only sensible way out of the mess...at any cost. At least it should see off the rise of the far right and the population realise the lies that have been pedalled by Johnson, farage, gove etc. Will it be a price worth paying? Will people be conned to believing it is the EU’s fault,not ours! If I may break this down to two points 1) Accept a hard Brexit, see how awful it is, then rejoin. Yes, it’s very tempting, we can all say “Told you so”, but at what cost? This is not a game, this is real, it will effect our children and Grandchildren before we can say “Told you so”. As a generation we would never be forgiven by our future generations for harming them just to prove a point. I certainly would not support such a tactic. 2) the Far Right and I’d include the Far Left, generally they act like spoilt children, if they don’t get what they want they will throw insults at you rather than argue the point logically or with evidence. If you give way to a spoilt child and give it what it wants, what happens? It is not satisfied it just wants more! The extremes are both built around hate, they may hate different things, but they both hate. Never, give in to hate, 99% of humans are good. |
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Post by beef on Jun 5, 2019 20:11:22 GMT
Perhaps the hard Brexit will be the best in the long run. An absolute disaster with rejoining the only sensible way out of the mess...at any cost. At least it should see off the rise of the far right and the population realise the lies that have been pedalled by Johnson, farage, gove etc. Will it be a price worth paying? Will people be conned to believing it is the EU’s fault,not ours! If I may break this down to two points 1) Accept a hard Brexit, see how awful it is, then rejoin. Yes, it’s very tempting, we can all say “Told you so”, but at what cost? This is not a game, this is real, it will effect our children and Grandchildren before we can say “Told you so”. As a generation we would never be forgiven by our ancestors for harming future generations just to prove a point. I certainly would not support such a tactic. 2) point the Far Right and I’d include the Far Left, generally they act like spoilt children, if they don’t get what they want they will throw insults at you rather than argue the point logically. If you give way to a spoilt child and give it what it wants, what happens? It is not satisfied it just wants more! The extremes are both built around hate, they may hate different things, but they both hate. Never, give in to hate, 99% of humans are good. When (it's already happening) the fallout from brexit starts to cause significant problems, it will never be the far-right populists' fault. it will be May, the EU, Parliament, that get the blame for not being able to agree a deal which would satisfy those willing to compromise and the hard brexiteer fantasists. I did read this suggestion a little while ago, which could satisfy all:  |
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Post by sc on Jun 5, 2019 20:19:34 GMT
If I may break this down to two points 1) Accept a hard Brexit, see how awful it is, then rejoin. Yes, it’s very tempting, we can all say “Told you so”, but at what cost? This is not a game, this is real, it will effect our children and Grandchildren before we can say “Told you so”. As a generation we would never be forgiven by our ancestors for harming future generations just to prove a point. I certainly would not support such a tactic. 2) point the Far Right and I’d include the Far Left, generally they act like spoilt children, if they don’t get what they want they will throw insults at you rather than argue the point logically. If you give way to a spoilt child and give it what it wants, what happens? It is not satisfied it just wants more! The extremes are both built around hate, they may hate different things, but they both hate. Never, give in to hate, 99% of humans are good. When (it's already happening) the fallout from brexit starts to cause significant problems, it will never be the far-right populists' fault. it will be May, the EU, Parliament, that get the blame for not being able to agree a deal which would satisfy those willing to compromise and the hard brexiteer fantasists. I did read this suggestion a little while ago, which could satisfy all: View Attachment😂😂😂 |
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Post by sc on Jun 6, 2019 0:11:33 GMT
If I may break this down to two points 1) Accept a hard Brexit, see how awful it is, then rejoin. Yes, it’s very tempting, we can all say “Told you so”, but at what cost? This is not a game, this is real, it will effect our children and Grandchildren before we can say “Told you so”. As a generation we would never be forgiven by our ancestors for harming future generations just to prove a point. I certainly would not support such a tactic. 2) point the Far Right and I’d include the Far Left, generally they act like spoilt children, if they don’t get what they want they will throw insults at you rather than argue the point logically. If you give way to a spoilt child and give it what it wants, what happens? It is not satisfied it just wants more! The extremes are both built around hate, they may hate different things, but they both hate. Never, give in to hate, 99% of humans are good. When (it's already happening) the fallout from brexit starts to cause significant problems, it will never be the far-right populists' fault. it will be May, the EU, Parliament, that get the blame for not being able to agree a deal which would satisfy those willing to compromise and the hard brexiteer fantasists. I did read this suggestion a little while ago, which could satisfy all: In reality if The Establishment Parties of The Conservatives and Labour survive this, as usual they will write history to blame the minority parties (especially The LibDems) as those that buggered things up. However, the real history will be there for researchers, but who cares about them? Most people read and listen to what they want to believe, rather than the truth ......... or am I being overly cynical? |
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